1 00:00:24,990 --> 00:00:20,160 welcome to shattered reality with your 2 00:00:28,050 --> 00:00:25,000 hosts Kate Valentine and furs prepare to 3 00:00:32,580 --> 00:00:28,060 add a paradigm shifted into truths 4 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:32,590 questioned and now shattered reality 5 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:35,650 well here we are again faroush a-- hey 6 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:38,050 Kate it's really great to see you and 7 00:00:42,690 --> 00:00:41,230 hear you one more time here you 8 00:00:44,910 --> 00:00:42,700 certainly picked out a very interesting 9 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:44,920 guest today why thank you 10 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:47,800 but I want to say that today uh-huh is 11 00:00:54,389 --> 00:00:51,610 May 10th 2016 ok all right 12 00:00:56,940 --> 00:00:54,399 and our guest I guess I'll introduce him 13 00:01:00,270 --> 00:00:56,950 ok but but there's nothing Supernatural 14 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:00,280 about maintenance it just happens to be 15 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:03,070 well I like to slate I see 16 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:06,130 it's like my experience in the 17 00:01:09,719 --> 00:01:07,930 commercial field you always slate who 18 00:01:10,830 --> 00:01:09,729 you are and then they say would you take 19 00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:10,840 it is IC o---- 20 00:01:14,490 --> 00:01:12,340 worth like that but we only have one 21 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:14,500 take we don't have one no no no this is 22 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:17,560 live this is it this is this is the way 23 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:21,130 it is in any case we have a very very 24 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:22,930 interesting guest for you today 25 00:01:29,010 --> 00:01:25,570 mm-hmm on a topic that we haven't even 26 00:01:31,830 --> 00:01:29,020 come close to covering before partially 27 00:01:34,109 --> 00:01:31,840 because I didn't even know exactly that 28 00:01:37,109 --> 00:01:34,119 it existed no I did not either I'm gonna 29 00:01:39,420 --> 00:01:37,119 say it like a couple of things that we 30 00:01:41,999 --> 00:01:39,430 all know about Mexico have you ever been 31 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:42,009 to Mexico okay never want to go I have 32 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:46,450 been to Mexico numerous times and I have 33 00:01:50,969 --> 00:01:48,310 gotten these little day of the dead 34 00:01:52,260 --> 00:01:50,979 figure it just freaks me out it freaks 35 00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:52,270 you out you're scared of those things 36 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:54,460 not scary it's just disgusting I just 37 00:01:59,880 --> 00:01:56,250 don't like it the whole thing is just 38 00:02:02,190 --> 00:01:59,890 but I mean you know I but that is my 39 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:02,200 take and you know obviously other people 40 00:02:09,630 --> 00:02:05,890 take it differently well I find that the 41 00:02:13,410 --> 00:02:09,640 sculptures very interesting and I have a 42 00:02:16,229 --> 00:02:13,420 couple of them in my house and one of 43 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:16,239 them is a little guy on a motorcycle a 44 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:18,760 skeleton on a motorcycle mhm and I think 45 00:02:21,660 --> 00:02:20,050 he's funny and cute 46 00:02:25,230 --> 00:02:21,670 and I never want to get on a motorcycle 47 00:02:27,060 --> 00:02:25,240 I am I am afraid of motorcycles you know 48 00:02:28,710 --> 00:02:27,070 the percentage on that in five years 49 00:02:30,060 --> 00:02:28,720 that's a hundred percent sure you're 50 00:02:33,270 --> 00:02:30,070 gonna have a major accident 51 00:02:34,710 --> 00:02:33,280 yeah well I'm afraid of this your 52 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:34,720 skillet and have like a little bobble 53 00:02:39,710 --> 00:02:37,210 head as it goes along no no that's okay 54 00:02:45,060 --> 00:02:40,830 okay 55 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:45,070 in any case when I no no I don't think 56 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:46,450 something okay I have to think about 57 00:02:54,630 --> 00:02:48,850 that no I don't think he does but in any 58 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:54,640 case when I saw the bride skeleton I 59 00:02:59,250 --> 00:02:56,770 always just thought it was another day 60 00:03:01,610 --> 00:02:59,260 of the dead skeleton and I have even 61 00:03:05,010 --> 00:03:01,620 been in both Anika's in New York City 62 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:05,020 where I have seen candles with the 63 00:03:11,940 --> 00:03:08,110 skeleton bride mhm and I just thought it 64 00:03:16,260 --> 00:03:11,950 was some day the dead thing but when I 65 00:03:18,620 --> 00:03:16,270 discovered our guests I discovered him 66 00:03:21,210 --> 00:03:18,630 through the morbid anatomy Museum in 67 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:21,220 Brooklyn that that he was sewing in 68 00:03:25,380 --> 00:03:23,530 place that's great yeah that's good that 69 00:03:26,940 --> 00:03:25,390 that he was going to be a guest and I 70 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:26,950 think he's going to be a guest in the 71 00:03:31,470 --> 00:03:28,690 future there shortly 72 00:03:33,150 --> 00:03:31,480 uh and I had to get in touch with him 73 00:03:36,860 --> 00:03:33,160 because it was such a fascinating 74 00:03:40,350 --> 00:03:36,870 subject so without any further ado I 75 00:03:43,430 --> 00:03:40,360 want to introduce the bishop Walter F 76 00:03:45,990 --> 00:03:43,440 Sullivan chair in Catholic studies and 77 00:03:49,550 --> 00:03:46,000 professor of Religious Studies at 78 00:03:54,330 --> 00:03:49,560 Virginia Commonwealth University mr. 79 00:03:57,870 --> 00:03:54,340 Andrew chestnut and his book devoted to 80 00:04:01,890 --> 00:03:57,880 death sontham where they the skeleton 81 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:01,900 st. welcome Andrew yes thank you it's a 82 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:04,120 pleasure to be here and let me also say 83 00:04:09,750 --> 00:04:06,490 that the great significance of this date 84 00:04:12,870 --> 00:04:09,760 of May 10 yes in Mexico it's actually 85 00:04:15,060 --> 00:04:12,880 Mother's Day kit out really and so my 86 00:04:17,340 --> 00:04:15,070 wife is Mexican and my mother-in-law of 87 00:04:22,530 --> 00:04:17,350 course is Mexican so I had to do a 88 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:22,540 Mother's Day 2.0 today oh well we're 89 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:25,210 both mothers and uh-huh and so we're 90 00:04:32,250 --> 00:04:27,970 very happy to celebrate Mexican Mother's 91 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:32,260 Day and your mother-in-law I wish them a 92 00:04:38,010 --> 00:04:34,030 very happy Mother's Day for 93 00:04:40,230 --> 00:04:38,020 what you're gonna ask is but maybe that 94 00:04:41,940 --> 00:04:40,240 was a little bit of psychic thinking for 95 00:04:44,100 --> 00:04:41,950 Asia maybe so 96 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:44,110 yeah maybe okay so I usually don't 97 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:46,810 mention the date well thank you thank 98 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:49,210 you and again dr. Chester I have to 99 00:04:53,430 --> 00:04:51,310 confess my ignorance and I didn't 100 00:04:57,750 --> 00:04:53,440 realize the significance of Santa 101 00:05:02,580 --> 00:04:57,760 variety very fascinating really as I as 102 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:02,590 a person who is a chair of Catholic 103 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:05,710 studies and now knowing what I do know 104 00:05:11,820 --> 00:05:07,930 that the the Catholic Church isn't 105 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:11,830 really very excited about this worship 106 00:05:18,810 --> 00:05:14,250 of Santa Muerte 107 00:05:21,390 --> 00:05:18,820 no and in fact so much so that when Pope 108 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:21,400 Francis was in Mexico back in February 109 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:24,690 he actually condemned Santa Muerte 110 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:28,390 basically as a patron saint of narcos of 111 00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:31,210 the drug cartels in Mexico but the 112 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:33,070 problem for the Catholic Church is that 113 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:36,490 the great majority of devotees of Santa 114 00:05:43,190 --> 00:05:39,130 Moorthy or Saint death in English still 115 00:05:49,110 --> 00:05:43,200 identify as Catholics hmm I say well how 116 00:05:53,850 --> 00:05:49,120 exactly did you come to be so fascinated 117 00:05:56,850 --> 00:05:53,860 with this cult figure I say that with 118 00:05:59,040 --> 00:05:56,860 respect in the sense that you know when 119 00:06:01,219 --> 00:05:59,050 I mean cult figure it just means to me 120 00:06:07,860 --> 00:06:01,229 not as a negative but more or less a 121 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:07,870 kind of some new sort of subspecies yes 122 00:06:14,219 --> 00:06:10,810 I am I'm a specialist in Latin American 123 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:14,229 religion and so I was about two years 124 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:16,150 into research for what I thought would 125 00:06:21,510 --> 00:06:19,120 be my third book on the most important 126 00:06:24,030 --> 00:06:21,520 representation of the Virgin Mary in the 127 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:24,040 entire world and that's mexico's Virgin 128 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:26,530 of Guadalupe love it love but I just 129 00:06:33,390 --> 00:06:30,610 didn't find the same type of motivation 130 00:06:36,210 --> 00:06:33,400 and passion that had buoyed my previous 131 00:06:41,070 --> 00:06:36,220 research and in that context of kind of 132 00:06:44,430 --> 00:06:41,080 research malaise in March 2009 I saw the 133 00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:44,440 news that the Mexican army had moved in 134 00:06:50,010 --> 00:06:47,110 with bulldozers and back home 135 00:06:53,310 --> 00:06:50,020 to demolish some forty Santa Muerte 136 00:06:56,460 --> 00:06:53,320 shrines haha the Texas Mexico and 137 00:06:58,350 --> 00:06:56,470 California Mexico border now I've been 138 00:07:02,070 --> 00:06:58,360 going to Mexico for over thirty years 139 00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:02,080 first time I think was in 1983 so I was 140 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:04,840 familiar with sontham worthy but I 141 00:07:10,650 --> 00:07:07,690 really wasn't aware that she had become 142 00:07:12,930 --> 00:07:10,660 kind of spiritual enemy number one for 143 00:07:15,540 --> 00:07:12,940 the Mexican government in their ongoing 144 00:07:17,490 --> 00:07:15,550 war against the drug cartels until I saw 145 00:07:20,070 --> 00:07:17,500 that news that the Mexican army had 146 00:07:22,020 --> 00:07:20,080 actually loved raised 40 of her shrines 147 00:07:25,530 --> 00:07:22,030 wow that was that was really the 148 00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:25,540 catalyst that that sparked my initial 149 00:07:31,470 --> 00:07:28,000 interest I consulted with with 150 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:31,480 colleagues friends family and after a 151 00:07:37,410 --> 00:07:33,490 couple weeks I decided to temporarily 152 00:07:40,770 --> 00:07:37,420 turn my back on on the guadalupe project 153 00:07:43,230 --> 00:07:40,780 and plunge into into this project on 154 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:43,240 santa muerte with the goal of publishing 155 00:07:47,250 --> 00:07:45,370 the first book in english and still four 156 00:07:49,740 --> 00:07:47,260 years later after was published it 157 00:07:53,070 --> 00:07:49,750 remains the sole academic book in 158 00:07:55,170 --> 00:07:53,080 english on on what is now the fastest 159 00:07:58,650 --> 00:07:55,180 growing new religious movement in the 160 00:08:01,860 --> 00:07:58,660 entire western hemisphere amazing Canada 161 00:08:04,380 --> 00:08:01,870 to Chile no other new religious movement 162 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:04,390 is growing as fast as the cult of Santa 163 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:04,810 Muerte 164 00:08:10,020 --> 00:08:07,690 okay wow that is that is just an amazing 165 00:08:12,870 --> 00:08:10,030 thing isn't it yeah well what exactly 166 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:12,880 are usually any religious cult or 167 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:15,490 sub-code will offer something what is 168 00:08:20,550 --> 00:08:18,730 the draw to sad what do people think you 169 00:08:23,910 --> 00:08:20,560 had was an excellent question there's 170 00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:23,920 multiple drawers but but I think the 171 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:26,110 most important thing is that she has a 172 00:08:32,790 --> 00:08:29,490 reputation as a very speedy and 173 00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:32,800 efficacious miracle worker and that you 174 00:08:36,540 --> 00:08:34,630 know a lot of the Catholic saints tend 175 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:36,550 to specialize in just one type of 176 00:08:41,850 --> 00:08:38,890 miracle or two at most 177 00:08:45,210 --> 00:08:41,860 right but Santa Muerte in kind of the 178 00:08:48,180 --> 00:08:45,220 spirit of the times is a multitasking 179 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:48,190 worker she's she's an agent of 180 00:08:56,190 --> 00:08:51,490 prosperity she's a curandera or healer 181 00:08:57,430 --> 00:08:56,200 she is a she's also the black Santa 182 00:09:01,449 --> 00:08:57,440 Muerte of 183 00:09:04,569 --> 00:09:01,459 of vengeance and revenge hmm and she's 184 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:04,579 also an agent of law and justice which 185 00:09:10,319 --> 00:09:07,160 would be her green votive candle and so 186 00:09:12,910 --> 00:09:10,329 it's kind of that multitasking molta 187 00:09:15,579 --> 00:09:12,920 miracle working persona that's a great 188 00:09:17,490 --> 00:09:15,589 attraction but at the same time since 189 00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:17,500 she does represent death 190 00:09:22,420 --> 00:09:20,529 she's proliferated in Mexico 191 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:22,430 unfortunately during a time of great 192 00:09:31,269 --> 00:09:26,810 death and dying in which some 100,000 193 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:31,279 Mexicans have been killed since 2006 in 194 00:09:36,069 --> 00:09:33,649 the ongoing drug violence that's 195 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:36,079 plaguing the country and so ironically a 196 00:09:42,460 --> 00:09:38,689 lot of devotees actually look to the 197 00:09:45,939 --> 00:09:42,470 saint of death for more grains of of 198 00:09:50,290 --> 00:09:45,949 life in the hourglass of life that she 199 00:09:53,949 --> 00:09:50,300 holds interesting interesting I I had an 200 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:53,959 in another question uh to bring things 201 00:10:00,429 --> 00:09:56,930 back a little bit to the Virgin of 202 00:10:04,059 --> 00:10:00,439 Guadalupe I did make a visit to the 203 00:10:06,340 --> 00:10:04,069 shrine of Guadalupe outside Mexico City 204 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:06,350 I guess it is is it in the actual 205 00:10:10,809 --> 00:10:08,810 environs of Mexico City or is it it is 206 00:10:13,269 --> 00:10:10,819 it's quite it seems like a little bit on 207 00:10:15,610 --> 00:10:13,279 the outskirts it is on the outskirts yes 208 00:10:17,620 --> 00:10:15,620 uh and I did go there and I was 209 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:17,630 incredibly impressed by the people 210 00:10:25,210 --> 00:10:21,170 coming from across Central America some 211 00:10:29,410 --> 00:10:25,220 of whom traveled the entire trip on 212 00:10:32,650 --> 00:10:29,420 their knees because they wanted to make 213 00:10:38,769 --> 00:10:32,660 this pilgrimage to the Virgin of 214 00:10:43,660 --> 00:10:38,779 Guadalupe and I am drawn to equating the 215 00:10:49,749 --> 00:10:43,670 Virgin of Guadalupe with the corn maiden 216 00:10:51,970 --> 00:10:49,759 as opposed to the mother Mary I'm not 217 00:10:54,850 --> 00:10:51,980 saying that it's not both things at once 218 00:10:59,799 --> 00:10:54,860 but I sort of have the feeling of 219 00:11:03,509 --> 00:10:59,809 something older still and by the same 220 00:11:07,259 --> 00:11:03,519 token I understand that there is a 221 00:11:10,830 --> 00:11:07,269 correspondence to a Mayan or Aztec 222 00:11:13,980 --> 00:11:10,840 goddess of death with some 223 00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:13,990 birthday right right going back to 224 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:16,560 Virgin of Guadalupe there's actually a 225 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:18,850 correspondence to an Aztec goddess 226 00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:22,090 called Conan seen in fact at the very 227 00:11:28,530 --> 00:11:25,120 site that you visited at the hill of 228 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:28,540 Tepeyac was exactly where the Aztec 229 00:11:33,870 --> 00:11:30,610 goddess tonin seen which which 230 00:11:36,030 --> 00:11:33,880 coincidentally means our mother was 231 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:36,040 worshipped by the Aztecs and so there 232 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:37,690 are many who argue that that actually 233 00:11:42,540 --> 00:11:39,490 the Virgin of Guadalupe is a type of 234 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:42,550 syncretism with the Aztec goddess phone 235 00:11:49,050 --> 00:11:46,450 on scene our mother yeah yes and also 236 00:11:51,210 --> 00:11:49,060 that holds true for Santa Muerte there's 237 00:11:54,060 --> 00:11:51,220 definitely a correspondence with with 238 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:54,070 certain Mayan and Aztec death deities 239 00:11:59,700 --> 00:11:56,770 and probably the closest correspondence 240 00:12:02,820 --> 00:11:59,710 is with the Aztec female the death 241 00:12:06,950 --> 00:12:02,830 goddess known as Makdessi wat oh now I 242 00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:06,960 can't say that after I read that and 243 00:12:12,540 --> 00:12:09,760 would you just say that once again just 244 00:12:13,290 --> 00:12:12,550 sounded great me that guy see what 245 00:12:16,770 --> 00:12:13,300 though 246 00:12:21,060 --> 00:12:16,780 sounds Klingon I think maybe they are 247 00:12:23,340 --> 00:12:21,070 from space somewhere no I had noticed 248 00:12:26,370 --> 00:12:23,350 that the correspondence between what 249 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:26,380 Alipay and the corn maiden which is a 250 00:12:33,210 --> 00:12:30,130 Native American deity that a friend of 251 00:12:36,330 --> 00:12:33,220 mine made a mask of and so I guess that 252 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:36,340 many of these things have you know are 253 00:12:40,610 --> 00:12:39,430 more what's the word I'm looking not 254 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:40,620 prototypes 255 00:12:48,450 --> 00:12:46,150 what is Jung call them archetypes 256 00:12:52,530 --> 00:12:48,460 archetypes are exactly exactly the word 257 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:52,540 I was looking for and what do you think 258 00:13:01,010 --> 00:12:56,170 about the idea that once we worship 259 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:01,020 something as human beings that a kind of 260 00:13:08,730 --> 00:13:05,710 group energy could form a sort of Topa 261 00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:08,740 like character do you know what I'm 262 00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:13,120 saying yeah but if you don't I'll 263 00:13:20,820 --> 00:13:15,430 explain yeah yeah why don't you explain 264 00:13:23,370 --> 00:13:20,830 what you mean in in Tibetan mysticism 265 00:13:29,550 --> 00:13:23,380 it's possible to 266 00:13:31,830 --> 00:13:29,560 on a being that doesn't yet exist and I 267 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:31,840 might be slightly off on this but you 268 00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:33,610 actually with your mind 269 00:13:42,450 --> 00:13:38,880 create a physical being you can create 270 00:13:46,350 --> 00:13:42,460 like a Menem a man in black or you can 271 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:46,360 create a shadow person with your brain 272 00:13:52,260 --> 00:13:49,090 more or less with your mind maybe not 273 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:52,270 your brain but your consciousness and I 274 00:13:59,130 --> 00:13:55,570 think that if you have a group of 275 00:14:02,760 --> 00:13:59,140 persons that decide to worship an 276 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:02,770 archetype you can sort of bring that 277 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:05,770 archetype to life and make it like a 278 00:14:13,740 --> 00:14:09,490 Tulpa the topper is the Tibetan being 279 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:13,750 that is brought into into being by by 280 00:14:21,540 --> 00:14:16,810 someone's meditation so I was just using 281 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:21,550 that as a as an example as an example 282 00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,430 yes right yeah I think one of the really 283 00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:26,800 interesting things about Santa Muerte is 284 00:14:34,140 --> 00:14:30,270 that she's clearly the result of 285 00:14:39,150 --> 00:14:34,150 religious syncretism or fusion between 286 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:39,160 the Grim Reaper as' because in Spain the 287 00:14:45,210 --> 00:14:42,850 our our Western European Grim Reaper 288 00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:45,220 more often was represented as the female 289 00:14:50,220 --> 00:14:47,440 Grim Reaper's called la potica in 290 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:50,230 Spanish so so the Spanish Catholic 291 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:52,930 Church brings over the figure of the 292 00:14:57,690 --> 00:14:54,970 Grim Reaper as' as a tool for 293 00:14:59,700 --> 00:14:57,700 evangelization of the indigenous people 294 00:15:03,360 --> 00:14:59,710 in Mexico and throughout the Americas 295 00:15:05,490 --> 00:15:03,370 and there's no doubt that the indigenous 296 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:05,500 people of course already have their own 297 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:09,250 death deities and while in Europe the 298 00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:11,290 figure of the Grim Reaper had never been 299 00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:14,310 a supernatural figure only a mere 300 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:16,720 representation or personification of 301 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:18,610 death which actually emerged out of the 302 00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:22,090 Black Plague of the 14th century which 303 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:24,550 sent about you know one third of of 304 00:15:29,940 --> 00:15:27,370 Europeans to an early grave yes so it's 305 00:15:33,660 --> 00:15:29,950 clear that that some of the indigenous 306 00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:33,670 people in Mexico Guatemala Argentina and 307 00:15:39,570 --> 00:15:37,150 Paraguay kind of take the figure of the 308 00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:39,580 Spanish Grim Reaper's to be a holy 309 00:15:45,380 --> 00:15:42,070 miracle working figure because they 310 00:15:48,690 --> 00:15:45,390 already have their own religious 311 00:15:50,850 --> 00:15:48,700 cultural context of having death deities 312 00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:50,860 and so what had simply been a 313 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:53,230 personification of death for the Western 314 00:15:59,940 --> 00:15:57,570 Europeans morphs into this supernatural 315 00:16:02,640 --> 00:15:59,950 miracle-working figure that we know as 316 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:02,650 Santa Muerte and so there's a lot of 317 00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:05,170 Mexicans who like to say oh no she is 318 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:08,740 kind of the latest incarnation if you 319 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:11,290 will or manifestation of the Aztec 320 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:13,690 goddess miktex I see well but but you 321 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:15,850 can't ignore the role of Spain without 322 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:18,010 the Spanish medieval Catholic Church 323 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:19,810 coming over with their figure of the 324 00:16:24,750 --> 00:16:21,910 Grim Reaper's there is no Santa Muerte 325 00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:24,760 in Mexico or the US for that matter 326 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:28,110 right right and and of course in Spanish 327 00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:31,930 the word for death worth that is is 328 00:16:38,070 --> 00:16:34,240 female yes yes and all the Romance 329 00:16:40,050 --> 00:16:38,080 language is it's female however we can't 330 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:40,060 take that too far because Santa Muerte 331 00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:44,410 has two male cousins one in Argentina 332 00:16:50,580 --> 00:16:47,710 and his name is Santa Muerte and another 333 00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:50,590 in Guatemala who is called Pasquale or 334 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:53,230 King Pasquale and those two skeleton 335 00:16:59,640 --> 00:16:55,810 Saints are actually male unlike female 336 00:17:01,710 --> 00:16:59,650 Santa Muerte so yes it is female LA 337 00:17:04,530 --> 00:17:01,720 birthday or death is female in Spanish 338 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:04,540 but that didn't influence the fact that 339 00:17:08,850 --> 00:17:07,450 to two of the three skeletal Saints are 340 00:17:11,850 --> 00:17:08,860 death Saints in the Americas are 341 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:11,860 actually male I have at this point I 342 00:17:17,870 --> 00:17:15,610 think we usually save questions for 343 00:17:20,850 --> 00:17:17,880 listener from listeners for the end 344 00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:20,860 however I think it's an appropriate time 345 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:25,390 to make mention of this question from 346 00:17:31,650 --> 00:17:28,810 our listener Roxanne who has been on the 347 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:31,660 show and it's because it's something 348 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:36,250 that had come to my mind as well do you 349 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:40,210 believe that the popularity of this 350 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:45,910 saint has to do to some extent with not 351 00:17:52,590 --> 00:17:48,970 only the deaths from that the drug war 352 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:52,600 but the the problems of ecology that are 353 00:18:01,100 --> 00:17:55,810 out there going on you may like the 354 00:18:08,340 --> 00:18:04,770 I think less directly much because 355 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:08,350 because the the violence is so horrific 356 00:18:16,350 --> 00:18:12,610 in Mexico that that most people are 357 00:18:21,150 --> 00:18:16,360 looking for very immediate solutions and 358 00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:21,160 and you know death and contamination due 359 00:18:27,810 --> 00:18:23,950 to environmental factors is usually kind 360 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:27,820 of a slower and less acute problem than 361 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:29,770 hey you know maybe there's this drug 362 00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:32,170 cartel around the quarter who might kill 363 00:18:37,230 --> 00:18:34,900 me at any moment so yeah so yeah I mean 364 00:18:40,650 --> 00:18:37,240 that could be relevant but I don't think 365 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:40,660 it's as relevant as the horrific ongoing 366 00:18:47,850 --> 00:18:43,330 drug war that's just kind of engulfed 367 00:18:50,910 --> 00:18:47,860 Mexico and and all those students those 368 00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:50,920 university students the university 369 00:18:57,630 --> 00:18:54,160 students as well exactly yeah that's 370 00:19:01,950 --> 00:18:57,640 it's just it's it's just been you know 371 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:01,960 ten years of just horrific violence and 372 00:19:05,970 --> 00:19:04,090 and you know a lot of people at Hope 373 00:19:08,850 --> 00:19:05,980 with the current president coming in a 374 00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:08,860 few years ago but the violence just 375 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:16,140 continues unabated so um your book has 376 00:19:23,150 --> 00:19:19,840 the chapters divided up by the different 377 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:23,160 color of the candles that could be lit 378 00:19:30,810 --> 00:19:26,710 in devotion to something more I think do 379 00:19:33,630 --> 00:19:30,820 you want to yes yes in studying and 380 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:33,640 researching it it just became kind of a 381 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:37,930 natural organic organizational framework 382 00:19:44,190 --> 00:19:40,690 for my book the fact that really the 383 00:19:46,860 --> 00:19:44,200 most important kind of paraphernalia of 384 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:46,870 devotion for Santa Muerte are these 385 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:49,290 colored votive candles and and 386 00:19:54,630 --> 00:19:52,450 particularly in economies of scarcity in 387 00:19:57,390 --> 00:19:54,640 Mexico these candles usually only cost 388 00:19:59,340 --> 00:19:57,400 between adoptees jar candles only cost 389 00:20:02,880 --> 00:19:59,350 between $1 in two dollars so if you 390 00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:02,890 can't afford a 50 or $100 statue you 391 00:20:06,030 --> 00:20:04,000 probably can scrape 392 00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:06,040 gather enough cash to buy one of the 393 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:08,110 votive candles and so yeah there's a 394 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:10,390 whole series of different colors and 395 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:13,510 they eat symbolize a major theme in the 396 00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:17,770 cult for example I found that the number 397 00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:20,230 one selling colored votive candle in 398 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:23,470 Mexico is the red candle not a mat of 399 00:20:29,130 --> 00:20:25,630 blood and murder but the red candle of 400 00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:29,140 love and passion and in indeed what we 401 00:20:34,380 --> 00:20:31,360 know Santa Murthy has been doing for the 402 00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:34,390 longest time in Mexico going back to the 403 00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:36,600 field notes of Mexican and American 404 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:39,190 anthropologists going back to the 1940s 405 00:20:45,660 --> 00:20:42,910 is love magic love sorcery particularly 406 00:20:47,490 --> 00:20:45,670 for aggrieved Mexican women who believe 407 00:20:50,190 --> 00:20:47,500 that their husbands or boyfriends are 408 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:50,200 cheating on them and indeed the oldest 409 00:20:58,170 --> 00:20:53,290 known prayer to Santa Muerte is a prayer 410 00:21:01,470 --> 00:20:58,180 to ask the the cheating husband to come 411 00:21:04,050 --> 00:21:01,480 back humbled at at the devotees knees 412 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:04,060 and to take out the other woman from his 413 00:21:09,870 --> 00:21:06,850 path and in fact that's what I'll be 414 00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:09,880 speaking about at morbid amor 'but 415 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:12,280 anatomy on May 30th about Santa Muerte 416 00:21:21,230 --> 00:21:15,730 the the love sorcerer's and you thought 417 00:21:28,020 --> 00:21:24,120 another popular candle is the gold 418 00:21:31,050 --> 00:21:28,030 candle symbolizing prosperity and 419 00:21:34,170 --> 00:21:31,060 abundance and indeed a lot of small 420 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:34,180 businesses throughout Mexico that don't 421 00:21:39,210 --> 00:21:36,730 necessarily sell Santa Muerte products 422 00:21:41,670 --> 00:21:39,220 will have a little in store altar to 423 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:41,680 Santa Muerte as a way to grow and 424 00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:43,810 prosper their business so she's also 425 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:47,110 kind of a strong agent of prosperity and 426 00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:48,610 there's this kind of really strong 427 00:21:53,610 --> 00:21:51,520 current of prosperity theology and the 428 00:21:55,710 --> 00:21:53,620 cult that somewhat mirrors what you see 429 00:21:59,610 --> 00:21:55,720 an evangelical Christianity in our 430 00:22:02,790 --> 00:21:59,620 country as well another candle I think 431 00:22:06,090 --> 00:22:02,800 about is the green candle of both law 432 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:06,100 and justice and this is really important 433 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:08,770 in Mexico where Santa Muerte is 434 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:12,310 basically become the patron saint of the 435 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:14,770 Mexican penal system not only of 436 00:22:17,580 --> 00:22:16,810 prisoners locked up mostly on drug 437 00:22:20,370 --> 00:22:17,590 crimes 438 00:22:23,250 --> 00:22:20,380 but even prison guards in fact what my 439 00:22:25,470 --> 00:22:23,260 nephew in the western state of michoacán 440 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:25,480 is a prison guard who estimates that 441 00:22:30,590 --> 00:22:27,910 about 1/4 of his fellow prison guards 442 00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:30,600 are devotees of Santa Muerte 443 00:22:35,610 --> 00:22:34,000 amazing amazing so that's sort of an 444 00:22:38,010 --> 00:22:35,620 interesting side note on human 445 00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:38,020 psychology - the number one thing is 446 00:22:43,620 --> 00:22:40,840 love marriage and so on and secondly 447 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:43,630 money and third justice that's sort of 448 00:22:48,780 --> 00:22:45,910 that's very like that actually sort of 449 00:22:55,050 --> 00:22:48,790 sums up most of the legal codes in most 450 00:22:57,060 --> 00:22:55,060 countries handle exactly and and you 451 00:22:59,970 --> 00:22:57,070 know she's particularly important also 452 00:23:03,060 --> 00:22:59,980 as as a supernatural advocate or 453 00:23:06,450 --> 00:23:03,070 attorney because the the judicial system 454 00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:06,460 in Mexico is so dysfunctional yes I'm 455 00:23:10,350 --> 00:23:08,470 sure that a lot of people a lot of 456 00:23:12,780 --> 00:23:10,360 people think that their only help can 457 00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:12,790 come from the supernatural they're 458 00:23:19,470 --> 00:23:17,230 probably right too big well you there's 459 00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:19,480 a black candle there is a black candle 460 00:23:25,220 --> 00:23:21,760 oh yes I'm sound good yes there's the 461 00:23:29,820 --> 00:23:25,230 black candle which is both for 462 00:23:31,770 --> 00:23:29,830 protection from from black magic or for 463 00:23:36,090 --> 00:23:31,780 those who might want to come against you 464 00:23:38,790 --> 00:23:36,100 but also for works of harm injury and 465 00:23:42,450 --> 00:23:38,800 vengeance against others and indeed 466 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:42,460 because she is a a folk saint and not a 467 00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:46,450 canonized Catholic saint she is open to 468 00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:49,120 those type of petitions I think and so I 469 00:23:54,660 --> 00:23:50,910 think there's a fair amount of Mexicans 470 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:54,670 who find it easier to bring those type 471 00:23:58,920 --> 00:23:57,010 of perhaps from the Christian 472 00:24:02,220 --> 00:23:58,930 perspective kind of morally dubious 473 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:02,230 petitions to her then they might want to 474 00:24:05,970 --> 00:24:04,510 bring to the Catholic saints not saying 475 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:05,980 that they don't do it I know they do it 476 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:09,370 but probably more frequently to Santa 477 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:11,530 Muerte since at the end of the day she's 478 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:14,050 not Christian right and it's sort of 479 00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:16,210 like going to your mom - as opposed to 480 00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:18,280 going to the church you know like I know 481 00:24:22,110 --> 00:24:20,320 it's not right but I'd really like to 482 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:22,120 settle this matter so can't you take 483 00:24:28,530 --> 00:24:25,450 care of it for me you know it seems like 484 00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:28,540 a very informal sort of uh exactly and 485 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:30,520 I'm so glad you rinse and you mentioned 486 00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:31,330 mother because 487 00:24:37,770 --> 00:24:34,960 for a lot of devotees she kind of plays 488 00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:37,780 that role of a maternal figure I've even 489 00:24:42,270 --> 00:24:40,150 heard women say you know I lost my 490 00:24:44,370 --> 00:24:42,280 mother but but I still have suntan 491 00:24:46,290 --> 00:24:44,380 worthy and so I mean that was something 492 00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:46,300 that really surprised me when I started 493 00:24:52,170 --> 00:24:49,120 my research I had no idea that she was 494 00:24:55,650 --> 00:24:52,180 this kind of maternal figure akin to the 495 00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:55,660 burgeoning while looping and she has a 496 00:25:01,230 --> 00:24:58,240 lot of epithets like the pretty girl 497 00:25:03,210 --> 00:25:01,240 though oh right hundreds but yeah some 498 00:25:05,670 --> 00:25:03,220 of the most popular translating into 499 00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:05,680 English would be the white girl 500 00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:07,750 of course she's bones right so white 501 00:25:17,250 --> 00:25:13,360 girl the pretty girl the skinny girl the 502 00:25:21,980 --> 00:25:17,260 bald lady the powerful lady the lady of 503 00:25:27,450 --> 00:25:21,990 the shadows interesting interesting and 504 00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:27,460 just as many people of the Catholic 505 00:25:36,510 --> 00:25:32,830 faith dress up the infant the infant of 506 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:36,520 Prague I guess they have dolls of the 507 00:25:40,770 --> 00:25:39,010 Christ child as a as a toddler or 508 00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:40,780 something and they just scented dress 509 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:45,310 him up I understand that the Mexican 510 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:50,530 devotees also dress up these statues of 511 00:25:57,900 --> 00:25:53,850 Santa Muerte with all kinds of things 512 00:26:00,720 --> 00:25:57,910 exactly in fact the most famous effigy 513 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:00,730 of Santa Muerte which is one of the most 514 00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:03,610 notorious varios of mexico city called 515 00:26:06,090 --> 00:26:04,240 Tepito 516 00:26:09,060 --> 00:26:06,100 actually that's that's where the cult 517 00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:09,070 willy emerges in public forum in the 518 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:12,400 first time in 2001 every 1st of the 519 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:12,850 month 520 00:26:18,660 --> 00:26:15,490 Santa Muerte gets a wardrobe change and 521 00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:18,670 and here kind of I mean that that's it 522 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:21,550 that's a good a good analogy you made 523 00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:23,890 with with the holy child of Prague or 524 00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:26,350 actually we have in in New Mexico we 525 00:26:31,550 --> 00:26:28,750 have the holy child of Atocha close to 526 00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:31,560 Santa Fe but but the more direct 527 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:34,270 correlation Mexico is the way they dress 528 00:26:39,630 --> 00:26:37,090 up the various representations of the 529 00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:39,640 Virgin most importantly Guadalupe so 530 00:26:43,140 --> 00:26:41,230 yeah yeah in fact there's there's 531 00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:43,150 there's a bunch of small businesses in 532 00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:45,440 Mexico City that Kate 533 00:26:50,379 --> 00:26:48,529 exclusively to dressing up effigies of 534 00:26:52,539 --> 00:26:50,389 Santa Muerte it's become a thriving 535 00:26:56,049 --> 00:26:52,549 business because now there's millions of 536 00:26:58,899 --> 00:26:56,059 devotees and Mexicans are really big on 537 00:27:00,730 --> 00:26:58,909 dressing colors and such so that's 538 00:27:03,460 --> 00:27:00,740 become an important kind of small 539 00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:03,470 business particularly in Mexico City and 540 00:27:12,430 --> 00:27:06,799 and the bridal of the bridal outfit how 541 00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:12,440 did that emerge I don't know when that 542 00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:15,110 first emerged but yeah dressing her as 543 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:18,110 the bride who's eternally waiting for 544 00:27:25,899 --> 00:27:22,690 the perfect groom who never shows up and 545 00:27:28,090 --> 00:27:25,909 sometimes a sexy bride as well I mean 546 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:28,100 last few years I've seen the sexy scent 547 00:27:34,570 --> 00:27:31,610 that were thin as well so yeah the bride 548 00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:34,580 the bride in Waiting I don't know when 549 00:27:39,180 --> 00:27:36,769 that first emerges but yeah that's 550 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:39,190 that's one of the more popular ways to 551 00:27:45,869 --> 00:27:41,809 represent her in fact in fact there's 552 00:27:50,049 --> 00:27:45,879 even a temple in Los Angeles that offers 553 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:50,059 temporary six-month wedding to Santa 554 00:27:59,169 --> 00:27:55,370 Muerte for male devotees hmm I have in 555 00:28:03,369 --> 00:27:59,179 my limited research on the subject 556 00:28:09,789 --> 00:28:03,379 before the interview I saw a number of 557 00:28:13,539 --> 00:28:09,799 tattoos on mostly on men of Santa Muerte 558 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:13,549 with some of them the skeletal and 559 00:28:20,830 --> 00:28:17,330 others looking like sort of a very 560 00:28:24,340 --> 00:28:20,840 beautiful but gaunt woman so there are a 561 00:28:26,350 --> 00:28:24,350 lot of a lot of things going on in this 562 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:26,360 this worship of Santa Muerte 563 00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:28,730 oh yeah the tattoos are so important 564 00:28:34,029 --> 00:28:31,279 because it's it's kind of seen as the 565 00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:34,039 ultimate you are giving her a piece of 566 00:28:39,610 --> 00:28:36,769 your personal real estate and so the 567 00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:39,620 tattoo the tattoos are usually made as 568 00:28:45,159 --> 00:28:42,230 part of a vow to Santa Muerte you know 569 00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:45,169 Santa Muerte if you come through and 570 00:28:50,860 --> 00:28:48,320 give me that new job that I'm offer that 571 00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:50,870 I promise I'll tattoo you on my back so 572 00:28:57,430 --> 00:28:53,120 yeah that's really really important and 573 00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:57,440 and again in Mexican prisons the number 574 00:29:02,290 --> 00:28:58,880 one tattoo is 575 00:29:07,690 --> 00:29:02,300 is the bony lady interesting I think on 576 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:07,700 the on the very maximum-security prisons 577 00:29:13,690 --> 00:29:10,850 in the United States there are tattoos 578 00:29:16,410 --> 00:29:13,700 born to lose is that isn't that the case 579 00:29:20,020 --> 00:29:16,420 came I think so that like serial killers 580 00:29:25,690 --> 00:29:20,030 tend to have that tattooed on their body 581 00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:25,700 somewhere born to lose in any case given 582 00:29:34,930 --> 00:29:29,380 that we here at shattered reality are 583 00:29:36,610 --> 00:29:34,940 something of a paranormal podcast 584 00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:36,620 working with a lot of different 585 00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:41,150 phenomena that occurs in the world could 586 00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:45,740 you give us some form of an account of 587 00:29:52,050 --> 00:29:48,950 something sort of paranormal that you 588 00:29:55,330 --> 00:29:52,060 have found in your research that 589 00:29:57,850 --> 00:29:55,340 something worth they has delivered yeah 590 00:30:01,300 --> 00:29:57,860 sure I never forget kind of one of the 591 00:30:02,980 --> 00:30:01,310 most compelling stories I was told early 592 00:30:06,850 --> 00:30:02,990 on in my research this must have been 593 00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:06,860 summer 2010 when I was interviewing a 594 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:09,470 lot of devotees at the famous shrine in 595 00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:13,490 Tepito in Mexico City I met a young goth 596 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:17,660 looking teen girl probably 18 or 19 and 597 00:30:24,220 --> 00:30:20,650 I said well you know is there any 598 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:24,230 particularly important miracle that that 599 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:26,930 Santa Muerte has worked for you and so 600 00:30:32,110 --> 00:30:29,330 she told me yeah about six months ago I 601 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:32,120 was involved in a gang knife fight and 602 00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:35,090 just as one of the rival gang members 603 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:38,030 was about to thrust a six-inch 604 00:30:44,620 --> 00:30:41,780 switchblade into my abdomen Santa Muerte 605 00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:44,630 appeared as this kind of spectral figure 606 00:30:50,770 --> 00:30:47,630 grabbed me by the by the arms and pulled 607 00:30:54,220 --> 00:30:50,780 me back saving me from the switchblade 608 00:30:57,900 --> 00:30:54,230 and so that you know that that's always 609 00:31:00,840 --> 00:30:57,910 remained with me but but those type of 610 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:00,850 manifestations kind of spectral 611 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:03,530 manifestations particularly for mexican 612 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:06,530 devotees are really common currency she 613 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:11,570 also she also appears to devotees and 614 00:31:16,149 --> 00:31:12,530 dreams 615 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:16,159 and and and we'll give them advice or 616 00:31:24,190 --> 00:31:19,610 maybe warnings about something that they 617 00:31:28,390 --> 00:31:24,200 should avoid do you have an example of 618 00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:28,400 that I can't think of any particular 619 00:31:33,970 --> 00:31:31,580 German off the top of my head now but 620 00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:33,980 yeah it's it just I mean that also is 621 00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:37,880 common currency interesting I don't know 622 00:31:42,460 --> 00:31:39,860 just that reminded me fast of like 623 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:42,470 Chorus Line with that one woman is 624 00:31:47,470 --> 00:31:45,530 trying to become an actress and they try 625 00:31:52,750 --> 00:31:47,480 to run her out of the acting class and 626 00:31:55,539 --> 00:31:52,760 she goes to Santa Maria and just prays 627 00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:55,549 to her and then the answer comes to her 628 00:32:00,430 --> 00:31:58,610 this man is no good and you are good and 629 00:32:05,740 --> 00:32:00,440 just ignore him and go on with your 630 00:32:08,169 --> 00:32:05,750 career and she thank you thank you that 631 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:08,179 a lot of devotees will tell you that 632 00:32:14,350 --> 00:32:11,090 they're their statues and their 633 00:32:17,770 --> 00:32:14,360 statuettes will turn their heads 634 00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:17,780 sometimes hmm they they actually drank 635 00:32:23,230 --> 00:32:20,240 the tequila and water that's offered to 636 00:32:26,049 --> 00:32:23,240 them and and and so there's that they 637 00:32:32,350 --> 00:32:26,059 really view their their effigies as 638 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:32,360 adamant mm-hmm it's just I think it you 639 00:32:36,789 --> 00:32:34,730 find this type of religious belief 640 00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:36,799 throughout all cultures and ethnicities 641 00:32:42,250 --> 00:32:39,980 I mean it's I think it's just more a 642 00:32:45,580 --> 00:32:42,260 reflection of the human psychology more 643 00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:45,590 than an actual religious event don't you 644 00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:48,710 I mean for example how nice 'ln where 645 00:32:53,289 --> 00:32:50,960 they carve elves onto rocks and a new 646 00:32:56,950 --> 00:32:53,299 leaf cookies there for them and then the 647 00:32:59,560 --> 00:32:56,960 cookies are eaten in the morning I mean 648 00:33:02,140 --> 00:32:59,570 you hear these type of stories all over 649 00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:02,150 we were looking for a real red-blooded 650 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:05,360 miracle like like the volcano went off 651 00:33:10,210 --> 00:33:07,730 and Santa Maria put a cork in it or 652 00:33:13,690 --> 00:33:10,220 something of that nature well right 653 00:33:17,470 --> 00:33:13,700 right but there's also there's also kind 654 00:33:20,919 --> 00:33:17,480 of a kind of class basis to this because 655 00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:20,929 a lot of times for the more working 656 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:23,950 classes religion tends to be much more 657 00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:26,210 tangible 658 00:33:34,420 --> 00:33:30,320 a lot of touching involved and also much 659 00:33:36,340 --> 00:33:34,430 more utilitarian or pragmatically 660 00:33:38,860 --> 00:33:36,350 oriented and so when I'm talking about 661 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:38,870 you know matters of law and justice and 662 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:40,850 love and health and wealth it's because 663 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:42,890 a lot of the devotees have hard lives 664 00:33:49,930 --> 00:33:46,490 yeah yeah they're looking for quick and 665 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:49,940 immediate solutions to things and so so 666 00:33:55,330 --> 00:33:52,250 it's it's very much kind of the the 667 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:55,340 opposite of what tends to be kind of a 668 00:34:01,270 --> 00:33:58,010 much more abstract and intellectual 669 00:34:04,750 --> 00:34:01,280 istic religious orientation of the elite 670 00:34:07,570 --> 00:34:04,760 of any given society well I would I 671 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:07,580 would tend to agree with you on that 672 00:34:14,740 --> 00:34:12,530 Andrew insofar as I think here in the 673 00:34:16,540 --> 00:34:14,750 northeast of the United States and 674 00:34:19,540 --> 00:34:16,550 you're almost in the northeast of the 675 00:34:21,130 --> 00:34:19,550 United States being here almost here 676 00:34:24,970 --> 00:34:21,140 just a little south of the mason-dixon 677 00:34:29,490 --> 00:34:24,980 line right now but I think that there is 678 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:29,500 a worship of scientism and this kind of 679 00:34:36,970 --> 00:34:32,570 everything can be explained sort of head 680 00:34:40,420 --> 00:34:36,980 set which does not exist south of the 681 00:34:42,430 --> 00:34:40,430 border to any extent whatsoever except 682 00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:42,440 as you say and you know maybe at the 683 00:34:48,420 --> 00:34:44,590 University of Mexico City or something 684 00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:48,430 in my experiences in Brazil and in 685 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:51,200 Panama and Mexico and a few other of the 686 00:34:58,140 --> 00:34:53,330 latin-american countries I visited is 687 00:35:03,160 --> 00:34:58,150 that there's still of the same degree of 688 00:35:06,250 --> 00:35:03,170 belief in the supernatural and belief 689 00:35:09,610 --> 00:35:06,260 that matter can be compromised by 690 00:35:12,940 --> 00:35:09,620 consciousness and frankly although I may 691 00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:12,950 not agree with the particulars of of 692 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:16,870 that I do agree in general that it 693 00:35:22,270 --> 00:35:20,090 matters can matter can be compromised by 694 00:35:24,190 --> 00:35:22,280 consciousness if you know what I mean 695 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:24,200 yeah sure and you can even include the 696 00:35:28,990 --> 00:35:26,090 United States in that because we're a 697 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:29,000 much much more religious country than 698 00:35:34,410 --> 00:35:31,130 Western Europe I mean Western Europe is 699 00:35:37,330 --> 00:35:34,420 kind of the greatest bastion of of 700 00:35:40,089 --> 00:35:37,340 disbelief and SEC secularism in the 701 00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:40,099 entire world so even even large 702 00:35:44,469 --> 00:35:42,049 swass of the United States you can clued 703 00:35:47,799 --> 00:35:44,479 in that that's true actually the whole 704 00:35:51,969 --> 00:35:47,809 voice I agree that the United States is 705 00:35:58,749 --> 00:35:51,979 a very religious country but I don't 706 00:36:02,529 --> 00:35:58,759 know how much general America tends to 707 00:36:06,279 --> 00:36:02,539 believe that matter is compromised by 708 00:36:09,370 --> 00:36:06,289 consciousness just believing in a God 709 00:36:14,130 --> 00:36:09,380 which you may petition or you may have 710 00:36:16,539 --> 00:36:14,140 certain rituals or beliefs around the 711 00:36:19,180 --> 00:36:16,549 supernatural quality I think is is 712 00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:19,190 stronger in the latin-american countries 713 00:36:22,839 --> 00:36:20,720 I mean it's maybe it's not true but 714 00:36:24,969 --> 00:36:22,849 seems that way to me I think because 715 00:36:27,579 --> 00:36:24,979 they still have a strong native culture 716 00:36:29,829 --> 00:36:27,589 underneath it are natives unfortunately 717 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:29,839 that culture disappeared to a great 718 00:36:36,069 --> 00:36:33,170 extent but I may be wrong to bail those 719 00:36:39,460 --> 00:36:36,079 people in the southwest back no you know 720 00:36:42,670 --> 00:36:39,470 what I'm saying no I hear ya let me 721 00:36:45,309 --> 00:36:42,680 point out that you know Pentecostalism 722 00:36:48,099 --> 00:36:45,319 uh-huh which is the great kind of spirit 723 00:36:50,709 --> 00:36:48,109 centered Christianity was born in the 724 00:36:53,410 --> 00:36:50,719 United States and it's very much 725 00:36:56,019 --> 00:36:53,420 centered on being kind of possessed and 726 00:36:58,709 --> 00:36:56,029 given the gifts of the Holy Spirit and 727 00:37:00,640 --> 00:36:58,719 that really quickly took off among 728 00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,650 african-americans in this country and 729 00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:03,200 it's thriving in Brazil in the Caribbean 730 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:05,839 and such - so so there still are very 731 00:37:10,959 --> 00:37:09,049 strong strains United States maybe not 732 00:37:12,459 --> 00:37:10,969 to the extent is Latin America but again 733 00:37:15,309 --> 00:37:12,469 compared to Western Europe 734 00:37:18,670 --> 00:37:15,319 I mean we're religious fanatics yes yes 735 00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:18,680 well so a lot of the people in on both 736 00:37:23,559 --> 00:37:21,049 coasts were basically their religion did 737 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:23,569 come from Western Europe and so it you 738 00:37:27,219 --> 00:37:25,210 know it lacked that underlying 739 00:37:28,779 --> 00:37:27,229 supernatural quality I mean obviously 740 00:37:30,789 --> 00:37:28,789 all religions have supernatural 741 00:37:32,170 --> 00:37:30,799 qualities but I don't it's just I don't 742 00:37:36,789 --> 00:37:32,180 know what you're saying it just seems 743 00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:36,799 more natural more just stronger and in 744 00:37:41,890 --> 00:37:39,710 other areas and we do you have to 745 00:37:43,450 --> 00:37:41,900 convince people here that there are such 746 00:37:45,849 --> 00:37:43,460 thing as ghosts or supernatural 747 00:37:48,249 --> 00:37:45,859 happenings whereas I think in South 748 00:37:50,259 --> 00:37:48,259 America it's more or less accepted yes I 749 00:37:53,490 --> 00:37:50,269 mean look at UFOs everyone believes in 750 00:37:56,490 --> 00:37:53,500 UFOs in Mexico City and here's like an 751 00:37:59,220 --> 00:37:56,500 in Argentina and yeah and here you have 752 00:38:01,260 --> 00:37:59,230 to you know you come off as an idiot if 753 00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:01,270 you think you believe in UFOs which of 754 00:38:07,010 --> 00:38:03,730 course is my parents used to live in New 755 00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:07,020 Mexico a lot of people there oh yeah 756 00:38:16,740 --> 00:38:11,920 that's the heartland well in New Mexico 757 00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:16,750 it's hard to tell ours from theirs in 758 00:38:23,130 --> 00:38:19,470 other words there are a lot of military 759 00:38:25,980 --> 00:38:23,140 installations around that area that may 760 00:38:27,210 --> 00:38:25,990 be flying advanced craft all right but 761 00:38:29,460 --> 00:38:27,220 you still have a lot of the American 762 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:29,470 natives like the various Indians in that 763 00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:31,090 area I mean look at their religious 764 00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:34,240 things they're largely supernatural and 765 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:39,070 I mean yeah they are they do believe in 766 00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:40,390 date it's a whole different approach 767 00:38:44,250 --> 00:38:43,060 than Western religions I was I was I'm 768 00:38:47,250 --> 00:38:44,260 telling you this I mean you're the 769 00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:47,260 professor I was fascinated 770 00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:49,510 over the weekend I happened to stay at a 771 00:38:59,820 --> 00:38:54,880 hotel in Pennsylvania and opened the 772 00:39:03,360 --> 00:38:59,830 drawer to find of course Gideon's Bible 773 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:03,370 as in the Beatles song but next to 774 00:39:09,330 --> 00:39:05,890 Gideon's Bible was the Book of Mormon 775 00:39:13,140 --> 00:39:09,340 and I almost fell over I was so 776 00:39:16,650 --> 00:39:13,150 surprised but when you consider that the 777 00:39:20,940 --> 00:39:16,660 Mormon religion is founded on a certain 778 00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:20,950 amount of a UFO lore I don't know if 779 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:22,870 you're staying in a Marriott because the 780 00:39:31,070 --> 00:39:26,650 Marriott okay there you go that's the 781 00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:31,080 reason thank you I didn't know that yeah 782 00:39:39,570 --> 00:39:34,000 so but anyway getting back to Santa 783 00:39:41,250 --> 00:39:39,580 morta more thing you know okay yeah but 784 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:41,260 you know you can see that where it would 785 00:39:46,170 --> 00:39:44,050 come out of sort of of people in the 786 00:39:49,410 --> 00:39:46,180 barrios in Mexico I mean their lives are 787 00:39:52,350 --> 00:39:49,420 desperate and I I would imagine I mean 788 00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:52,360 happily I don't know for sure but I mean 789 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:54,700 if your life is so miserable you start 790 00:39:58,800 --> 00:39:56,650 the worship death I mean it seems like a 791 00:40:02,070 --> 00:39:58,810 relief you know exactly and I think it's 792 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:02,080 really telling that the the most popular 793 00:40:07,220 --> 00:40:05,530 Catholic saint in both Mexico and among 794 00:40:10,700 --> 00:40:07,230 Catholic Latinos and I 795 00:40:13,580 --> 00:40:10,710 States is st. Jude who of course is the 796 00:40:15,700 --> 00:40:13,590 patron of lost causes yeah yeah I've 797 00:40:19,609 --> 00:40:15,710 found that a lot of Santa Muerte 798 00:40:22,340 --> 00:40:19,619 devotees in Mexico before were devotees 799 00:40:25,130 --> 00:40:22,350 of Saint Jude and they would say oh you 800 00:40:27,349 --> 00:40:25,140 know I was asking Saint Jude for this 801 00:40:30,620 --> 00:40:27,359 favor for three months he never came 802 00:40:33,950 --> 00:40:30,630 through my aunt recommended that I check 803 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:33,960 out Santa Muerte and within three days I 804 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:36,330 got the new job that I was asking for 805 00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:39,210 and so you know if you can't if you 806 00:40:44,270 --> 00:40:41,760 can't get the patron saint of lost 807 00:40:47,390 --> 00:40:44,280 causes to come to you then then who else 808 00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:47,400 to go to well fantomworks birthday well 809 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:51,510 what is the story with making a promise 810 00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:53,730 and if you don't keep the promise there 811 00:41:00,740 --> 00:40:57,119 could be dire results can you that would 812 00:41:04,250 --> 00:41:00,750 beYOU listen on that yeah yeah actually 813 00:41:06,590 --> 00:41:04,260 actually that also corresponds with 814 00:41:10,010 --> 00:41:06,600 Catholic saints as well a lot of people 815 00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:10,020 will approach favors and asking for 816 00:41:16,220 --> 00:41:12,720 miracles of the Catholic saints in kind 817 00:41:20,270 --> 00:41:16,230 of a contractual relationship Oh st. 818 00:41:26,540 --> 00:41:20,280 Jude if you heal my daughter of her 819 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:26,550 illness then I will light 12 candles to 820 00:41:33,890 --> 00:41:31,530 you for 12 straight days now if st. Jude 821 00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:33,900 comes through with a miracle and you 822 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:36,240 don't fulfill your vow to light those 823 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:39,810 candles then even st. Jude might exact 824 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:42,330 some type of retribution or punishment 825 00:41:46,070 --> 00:41:44,490 well the same works with Santa Muerte 826 00:41:49,070 --> 00:41:46,080 but of course since she has the 827 00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:49,080 reputation of being so powerful and she 828 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:52,800 has that larger than life size then if 829 00:41:57,950 --> 00:41:56,010 you don't fulfill a vow that you made 830 00:42:00,920 --> 00:41:57,960 her and she comes through on the miracle 831 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:00,930 then then yeah I mean it's possible she 832 00:42:06,349 --> 00:42:04,050 might seek retribution and kind of the 833 00:42:09,470 --> 00:42:06,359 the myth that you'll hear in Mexico 834 00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:09,480 particularly among non-believers is that 835 00:42:16,690 --> 00:42:12,510 she actually might secret retribution in 836 00:42:17,870 --> 00:42:16,700 taking your entire family with her oh 837 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:17,880 that's 838 00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:20,850 quite something but of course most 839 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:22,800 devotees will tell you though that's not 840 00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:25,170 true that's just that's just lie spread 841 00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:29,310 by non-believers you know what what fer 842 00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:32,160 Shur was mentioning before was mind over 843 00:42:39,590 --> 00:42:35,760 matter and how much is that you know if 844 00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:39,600 you're that firm a believer in Santa 845 00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:40,110 Muerte 846 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:43,950 if you're that firm a believer perhaps 847 00:42:48,650 --> 00:42:46,410 you yourself create your own miracles I 848 00:42:49,370 --> 00:42:48,660 mean that would be your take on it right 849 00:42:52,910 --> 00:42:49,380 for Russia 850 00:42:56,060 --> 00:42:52,920 uh you know my my jury is out as to 851 00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:56,070 whether we are contacting our higher 852 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:01,920 selves or a third a third party and 853 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:05,130 whether on some level if you know we're 854 00:43:11,510 --> 00:43:08,010 all one whether it actually matters yeah 855 00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:11,520 I mean it's it's beyond me in in my 856 00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:14,790 human right thank you you feel that's 857 00:43:19,210 --> 00:43:17,280 really possible it you have let's say 858 00:43:22,580 --> 00:43:19,220 twenty people really praying for 859 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:22,590 something right and they're very they're 860 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:24,810 very serious they really want this and 861 00:43:30,050 --> 00:43:27,330 they're very sincere in their request do 862 00:43:33,590 --> 00:43:30,060 you think dr chesson that that might 863 00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:33,600 have some sort of an effect and other 864 00:43:39,230 --> 00:43:36,960 than st. doing it for them just the fact 865 00:43:43,340 --> 00:43:39,240 of you know this psychic ability in 866 00:43:46,070 --> 00:43:43,350 humans to create things to give you an 867 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:46,080 example like home team advantage in in 868 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:51,510 sports yeah yeah yeah that's a tough 869 00:43:58,060 --> 00:43:54,930 question because in my own research I 870 00:44:04,010 --> 00:43:58,070 don't usually get into you know 871 00:44:11,770 --> 00:44:04,020 explaining or analyzing the validity of 872 00:44:15,110 --> 00:44:11,780 miracles I don't see it as my charge to 873 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:15,120 to kind of scientifically debunk 874 00:44:20,420 --> 00:44:17,490 miracles right that's not exactly the 875 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:20,430 bunking it no no it's not it's not yes 876 00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:22,290 but but but it's not really something 877 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:26,390 that I get into into this kind of 878 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:31,010 genesis of miracles in my research so i 879 00:44:35,710 --> 00:44:33,650 no I guess I'd rather refrain from okay 880 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:35,720 finding on that particular matter 881 00:44:42,460 --> 00:44:39,050 well the miracles I mean in terms of the 882 00:44:45,490 --> 00:44:42,470 Catholic Church isn't it that they're it 883 00:44:47,650 --> 00:44:45,500 has to go before a Council of Bishops 884 00:44:50,110 --> 00:44:47,660 and they decide whether it's a miracle 885 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:50,120 or not depending on certain things I 886 00:44:54,580 --> 00:44:52,130 mean I gotta I'm not a Catholic scholars 887 00:44:56,590 --> 00:44:54,590 yeah yeah particularly if somebody's 888 00:44:59,890 --> 00:44:56,600 being considered for beatification and 889 00:45:02,350 --> 00:44:59,900 canonization yeah they they need proof 890 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:02,360 of that yes so so why do you think 891 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:04,450 they'd object-- so much to Santa Muerte 892 00:45:09,460 --> 00:45:07,010 since you've what what's their 893 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:09,470 objections there yeah there's two major 894 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:10,970 reasons mm-hmm 895 00:45:18,070 --> 00:45:14,930 first there's competition okay the 896 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:18,080 Catholic Church in Mexico is the second 897 00:45:24,070 --> 00:45:21,010 largest in the world second to Brazil's 898 00:45:25,540 --> 00:45:24,080 and it's in decline as all Catholic 899 00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:25,550 churches are throughout Latin America 900 00:45:29,650 --> 00:45:27,440 which of course it historically has been 901 00:45:32,530 --> 00:45:29,660 the most Catholic region on earth mm-hm 902 00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:32,540 and the real the most important reason 903 00:45:36,730 --> 00:45:34,480 they're in decline is because 904 00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:36,740 Pentecostalism which I mentioned before 905 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:39,440 is surging throughout Latin America so 906 00:45:44,650 --> 00:45:42,530 so many many Catholics have left the 907 00:45:47,290 --> 00:45:44,660 church to become Pentecostals that's the 908 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:47,300 main reason so for example Brazil is now 909 00:45:53,350 --> 00:45:50,210 only sixty-one percent Catholic Wow if 910 00:45:55,630 --> 00:45:53,360 the trend continues by 2030 Brazil the 911 00:45:58,440 --> 00:45:55,640 largest Catholic nation on earth will no 912 00:46:01,180 --> 00:45:58,450 longer be a Catholic majority nation 913 00:46:02,830 --> 00:46:01,190 Mexico has held its own better but it's 914 00:46:06,220 --> 00:46:02,840 still down to about eighty percent 915 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:06,230 Catholic and so Santa Muerte presents 916 00:46:12,670 --> 00:46:09,650 serious competition particularly when 917 00:46:16,090 --> 00:46:12,680 most of the devotees are people who do 918 00:46:18,670 --> 00:46:16,100 identify as Catholics yet most of them 919 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:18,680 really are nominal or cultural Catholics 920 00:46:22,780 --> 00:46:20,810 who probably haven't set foot and 921 00:46:25,980 --> 00:46:22,790 haven't attended a Catholic Mass for 922 00:46:28,870 --> 00:46:25,990 many years so there's competition and 923 00:46:33,070 --> 00:46:28,880 there's also on the theological plane 924 00:46:35,260 --> 00:46:33,080 the argument that as a Christian you 925 00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:35,270 should not be venerating a figure of 926 00:46:41,980 --> 00:46:39,110 death if Jesus Christ came sacrifice 927 00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:41,990 himself on the cross to give us the the 928 00:46:44,750 --> 00:46:43,730 promise of eternal life eternal 929 00:46:47,540 --> 00:46:44,760 salvation 930 00:46:50,540 --> 00:46:47,550 then in a way death is really the last 931 00:46:53,630 --> 00:46:50,550 enemy that was vanquished by by Christ 932 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:53,640 and in venerating death you're really 933 00:46:58,660 --> 00:46:56,130 venerating the antithesis of Christ and 934 00:47:03,050 --> 00:46:58,670 so it's really tantamount to an 935 00:47:06,970 --> 00:47:03,060 unintentional Satanism oh my yeah you're 936 00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:06,980 quite right well things seem to work 937 00:47:15,530 --> 00:47:11,760 pretty comfortably together in places in 938 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:15,540 the Caribbean that have Santeria and 939 00:47:24,890 --> 00:47:20,010 their counterparts you know with folk 940 00:47:27,830 --> 00:47:24,900 Saints in in that area so I I could see 941 00:47:31,450 --> 00:47:27,840 where people could both think of 942 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:31,460 themselves as Catholic and also have a 943 00:47:38,060 --> 00:47:34,890 devotion to Santa Muerte right right of 944 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:38,070 course yeah most most Mexican devotees 945 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:40,650 don't even don't know that the church is 946 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:42,690 condemned Santa Marta or they don't care 947 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:45,690 because it kind of fits in fits in with 948 00:47:51,740 --> 00:47:47,850 their kind of larger larger folk 949 00:47:53,180 --> 00:47:51,750 Catholic worldview so yeah I think you 950 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:53,190 know the Vatican and it really is 951 00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:54,530 extraordinary that Pope Francis 952 00:48:00,080 --> 00:47:56,970 condemned her and actually one of his 953 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:00,090 colleagues Italian Cardinal who's the 954 00:48:05,510 --> 00:48:03,090 president of the Pontifical Council of 955 00:48:08,090 --> 00:48:05,520 culture condemned Santa Muerte three 956 00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:08,100 years ago he was in Mexico City for a 957 00:48:11,690 --> 00:48:10,710 visit and I'm each to the four days in 958 00:48:14,330 --> 00:48:11,700 Mexico City 959 00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:14,340 he condemned Santa Martha by name so you 960 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:16,110 know it's not every day that the Vatican 961 00:48:22,220 --> 00:48:18,810 is actually issuing condemnation of folk 962 00:48:24,110 --> 00:48:22,230 sings well why oh I was gonna say why 963 00:48:26,540 --> 00:48:24,120 did they kit I mean what reasons did 964 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:26,550 they give did they have to give a reason 965 00:48:32,690 --> 00:48:28,890 or did they you say I condemn you 966 00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:32,700 yeah well they called her blasphemy okay 967 00:48:38,420 --> 00:48:35,250 anti religion and when the Pope was 968 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:38,430 there in February basically condemned 969 00:48:45,020 --> 00:48:40,530 her as kind of the what did he call it 970 00:48:50,690 --> 00:48:45,030 the McCobb symbol of of narcos of drug 971 00:48:56,210 --> 00:48:50,700 traffickers well Andrew I am a something 972 00:48:58,309 --> 00:48:56,220 of a devotee of another folk saint that 973 00:49:01,099 --> 00:48:58,319 was condemned by the Catholic 974 00:49:03,620 --> 00:49:01,109 and I don't know if you're familiar with 975 00:49:07,519 --> 00:49:03,630 her but she wouldn't go away 976 00:49:11,209 --> 00:49:07,529 and she just kept coming back so much so 977 00:49:14,539 --> 00:49:11,219 that they had to install her in the 978 00:49:18,109 --> 00:49:14,549 cathedral of short in France and that's 979 00:49:20,209 --> 00:49:18,119 no true Dom Sue's tere are you familiar 980 00:49:23,089 --> 00:49:20,219 with her I am I am 981 00:49:26,209 --> 00:49:23,099 and I am you know I went over there and 982 00:49:29,289 --> 00:49:26,219 I spent a lot of time in the Crypt with 983 00:49:33,919 --> 00:49:29,299 her where she's underneath the earth and 984 00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:33,929 they couldn't keep her down or the black 985 00:49:40,999 --> 00:49:37,529 Isis of of Poland you know the Black 986 00:49:44,979 --> 00:49:41,009 Madonna which was Isis and Isis statue 987 00:49:47,870 --> 00:49:44,989 and I don't know no relationship to the 988 00:50:00,229 --> 00:49:47,880 disgusting immoral beasts in the Middle 989 00:50:01,849 --> 00:50:00,239 East they punished for using her name is 990 00:50:04,219 --> 00:50:01,859 a good example because over the 991 00:50:06,109 --> 00:50:04,229 centuries there have been there have 992 00:50:08,899 --> 00:50:06,119 been kind of folks saying to have been 993 00:50:11,089 --> 00:50:08,909 incorporated and canonized but I can 994 00:50:14,409 --> 00:50:11,099 firmly guarantee that that's never ever 995 00:50:19,519 --> 00:50:17,569 so what is your next project 996 00:50:21,019 --> 00:50:19,529 actually I don't I think we should 997 00:50:23,029 --> 00:50:21,029 announce your book at this yes you 998 00:50:26,149 --> 00:50:23,039 should announce your book I Andrews yeah 999 00:50:28,909 --> 00:50:26,159 yeah my book is called devoted to deaths 1000 00:50:32,109 --> 00:50:28,919 anthem worthless skeleton Saint was 1001 00:50:34,729 --> 00:50:32,119 published by Oxford University Press 1002 00:50:36,409 --> 00:50:34,739 2012 and so actually right now I'm 1003 00:50:41,029 --> 00:50:36,419 writing the new edition the second 1004 00:50:43,339 --> 00:50:41,039 edition which should be out mid 2017 so 1005 00:50:44,479 --> 00:50:43,349 that's what I'm working on now and then 1006 00:50:46,579 --> 00:50:44,489 when I'm done with that I'll probably 1007 00:50:48,559 --> 00:50:46,589 move on to a second book on Santa Muerte 1008 00:50:51,529 --> 00:50:48,569 because there's so many themes I haven't 1009 00:50:55,039 --> 00:50:51,539 covered like her name also means holy 1010 00:50:58,640 --> 00:50:55,049 death and this concept of having a good 1011 00:51:01,640 --> 00:50:58,650 death or a holy death in a Mexico beset 1012 00:51:03,949 --> 00:51:01,650 by so much bad death yeah it was really 1013 00:51:06,109 --> 00:51:03,959 powerful as well and that's not a theme 1014 00:51:08,149 --> 00:51:06,119 that I really worked too much and in 1015 00:51:10,789 --> 00:51:08,159 devoted to death so there's a she's also 1016 00:51:12,859 --> 00:51:10,799 grown a lot among african-american 1017 00:51:15,799 --> 00:51:12,869 and euro-americans here in the united 1018 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:15,809 states i'm on four or five facebook 1019 00:51:21,859 --> 00:51:18,650 pages of devotees or almost exclusively 1020 00:51:25,279 --> 00:51:21,869 white americans so i want to write about 1021 00:51:28,219 --> 00:51:25,289 her her kind of surging popularity among 1022 00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:28,229 african and euro-american so interesting 1023 00:51:32,660 --> 00:51:29,910 a lot of themes that i haven't touched 1024 00:51:35,359 --> 00:51:32,670 on yet i'd like to explore in the near 1025 00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:35,369 future so a lot of people obviously are 1026 00:51:39,890 --> 00:51:37,049 buying your books that are interested in 1027 00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:39,900 this is unless until faroush you brought 1028 00:51:42,259 --> 00:51:41,910 it up I had actually never even heard of 1029 00:51:44,779 --> 00:51:42,269 it 1030 00:51:46,939 --> 00:51:44,789 so yeah yeah I mean again I don't really 1031 00:51:49,489 --> 00:51:46,949 talk about competition I don't have any 1032 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:49,499 because yeah four years later it's the 1033 00:51:54,799 --> 00:51:52,650 only study in English so yeah for an 1034 00:51:57,169 --> 00:51:54,809 academic book it's done very well how 1035 00:51:59,779 --> 00:51:57,179 about in Mexico ins and that was 1036 00:52:02,509 --> 00:51:59,789 published in Mexico two years ago also 1037 00:52:03,380 --> 00:52:02,519 also published in Poland last year 1038 00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:03,390 Poland 1039 00:52:11,479 --> 00:52:08,640 yeah estimated how I polled I mean a in 1040 00:52:13,819 --> 00:52:11,489 a cult press that was in Austin yeah I 1041 00:52:16,519 --> 00:52:13,829 was thinking wow Poland is really the 1042 00:52:19,749 --> 00:52:16,529 last bastion yeah house ISM in in Europe 1043 00:52:23,599 --> 00:52:19,759 yet there it is in in Polish as well 1044 00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:23,609 well that's that's wonderful Andrew yeah 1045 00:52:28,549 --> 00:52:26,640 in fact I'll also be also be giving 1046 00:52:31,130 --> 00:52:28,559 three book talks in London and early 1047 00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:31,140 July so I'm looking forward to that as 1048 00:52:39,949 --> 00:52:34,559 well and well what what type of people 1049 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:39,959 are do you find in the audience well in 1050 00:52:50,689 --> 00:52:45,890 London they'll probably be neo-pagans 1051 00:52:53,029 --> 00:52:50,699 University people people maybe people 1052 00:52:55,279 --> 00:52:53,039 with an interest in Latin America uh-huh 1053 00:52:56,959 --> 00:52:55,289 and then you know and and when I go to 1054 00:52:59,599 --> 00:52:56,969 New York I've spoke it more of an 1055 00:53:02,199 --> 00:52:59,609 anatomy two times already and so you 1056 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:02,209 know kind of the whole you know Brooklyn 1057 00:53:07,579 --> 00:53:04,890 hipster crowd shows up these types of 1058 00:53:10,009 --> 00:53:07,589 things well I hope to see you there I 1059 00:53:14,539 --> 00:53:10,019 hope so it made it again where y'all day 1060 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:14,549 ah so we want to thank you very very 1061 00:53:19,579 --> 00:53:17,130 much for joining us here on shattered 1062 00:53:21,079 --> 00:53:19,589 reality especially on my part because I 1063 00:53:23,029 --> 00:53:21,089 had never heard of any of this so it's 1064 00:53:24,650 --> 00:53:23,039 all brand new thank you so much it's 1065 00:53:26,750 --> 00:53:24,660 really been wonderful 1066 00:53:28,099 --> 00:53:26,760 speaking with you and we hope that 1067 00:53:30,349 --> 00:53:28,109 perhaps you'll join us again 1068 00:53:32,839 --> 00:53:30,359 particularly when you come out with your 1069 00:53:35,299 --> 00:53:32,849 second edition oh I'd love to it's been 1070 00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:35,309 a great pleasure and I really thank you 1071 00:53:39,849 --> 00:53:38,640 for the the wonderful incisive questions 1072 00:53:43,670 --> 00:53:39,859 as well 1073 00:53:48,020 --> 00:53:43,680 thank you so we're gonna say goodbye to 1074 00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:48,030 you and move on to the end part of the 1075 00:53:55,690 --> 00:53:51,510 show where we had a very nice letter 1076 00:53:59,420 --> 00:53:55,700 we had asked our we had asked our 1077 00:54:03,920 --> 00:53:59,430 listeners to perhaps give us some 1078 00:54:05,089 --> 00:54:03,930 accounts of events with pets psychic 1079 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:05,099 events with pets 1080 00:54:10,099 --> 00:54:08,010 I don't think experiences with pets and 1081 00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:10,109 so I don't know 1082 00:54:14,599 --> 00:54:12,569 since this letter was really written by 1083 00:54:17,809 --> 00:54:14,609 somebody who was a particular fan of 1084 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:17,819 yours Kate and formerly the Kate 1085 00:54:23,450 --> 00:54:20,490 Valentine UFO show perhaps you would 1086 00:54:27,799 --> 00:54:23,460 like to read what our listeners 1087 00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:27,809 certainly ferocious okay so it's the 1088 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:30,180 listener rode in I've never left a 1089 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:32,730 comment before but I love the show you 1090 00:54:36,670 --> 00:54:34,650 both have a wonderful way with guests 1091 00:54:39,650 --> 00:54:36,680 and with the making the subject matter 1092 00:54:41,690 --> 00:54:39,660 understandable I feel a very strong bond 1093 00:54:44,870 --> 00:54:41,700 with animals and nature for various 1094 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:44,880 reasons and have had a number of unusual 1095 00:54:50,690 --> 00:54:47,970 and quotes experiences wonder stands out 1096 00:54:54,410 --> 00:54:50,700 involved my dog Wiley who Kate may 1097 00:54:56,510 --> 00:54:54,420 remember and yes I do he used to lay at 1098 00:54:58,700 --> 00:54:56,520 the top of my basement stairs while I 1099 00:55:01,730 --> 00:54:58,710 cleaned the cat litter boxes and watch 1100 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:01,740 me one week after I had to put him down 1101 00:55:06,829 --> 00:55:04,770 due to cancer I was and that was sad I 1102 00:55:09,260 --> 00:55:06,839 did anyway I was in the basement and 1103 00:55:11,450 --> 00:55:09,270 happened to glance at the stairs there 1104 00:55:14,269 --> 00:55:11,460 was Wiley hanging his head over the top 1105 00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:14,279 stair watching me as usual I turned away 1106 00:55:19,940 --> 00:55:16,410 thinking nothing of it and then realized 1107 00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:19,950 oh wait that can't be when I looked 1108 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:22,710 again there was nothing there I guess it 1109 00:55:28,819 --> 00:55:24,930 can be explained away as simply a type 1110 00:55:30,740 --> 00:55:28,829 of photographic memory and yet I know it 1111 00:55:32,660 --> 00:55:30,750 was more than that I think he was 1112 00:55:37,099 --> 00:55:32,670 checking to make sure I kept my promise 1113 00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:37,109 to him to rescue another dog lol which I 1114 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:37,920 did 1115 00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:39,930 and that involves another whole series 1116 00:55:44,829 --> 00:55:42,569 of coincidences thanks again for the 1117 00:55:47,510 --> 00:55:44,839 great show and keep up the good work 1118 00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:47,520 well thank you so much for such a lovely 1119 00:55:53,660 --> 00:55:50,130 letter yes it was very nice to receive 1120 00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:53,670 that account of psychic pet experience 1121 00:55:58,430 --> 00:55:56,640 and you know just recently there was a 1122 00:56:00,859 --> 00:55:58,440 talk-show host that was talking about 1123 00:56:03,770 --> 00:56:00,869 the relationship between humans and dogs 1124 00:56:06,049 --> 00:56:03,780 and how you know obviously it's it's a 1125 00:56:08,569 --> 00:56:06,059 close bond and we do have other pets but 1126 00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:08,579 there's something a little bit closer a 1127 00:56:13,309 --> 00:56:11,040 little bit more attuned to humans with 1128 00:56:16,460 --> 00:56:13,319 dogs and with any other species I think 1129 00:56:18,410 --> 00:56:16,470 I think anyway that's well I've had a 1130 00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:18,420 couple of dogs and I felt very very 1131 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:20,910 close to them three dogs in all in my 1132 00:56:27,079 --> 00:56:24,690 life but as you know I'm a cat owner and 1133 00:56:30,620 --> 00:56:27,089 I feel very very close to some of my 1134 00:56:33,710 --> 00:56:30,630 cats some of my cats that I've had over 1135 00:56:36,650 --> 00:56:33,720 the course of time and they I am as much 1136 00:56:38,599 --> 00:56:36,660 their servant as vice versa certainly 1137 00:56:42,380 --> 00:56:38,609 towards five owners cats have staff 1138 00:56:46,069 --> 00:56:42,390 that's right I'm the cat staff and but 1139 00:56:48,620 --> 00:56:46,079 some of them seem to be more involved 1140 00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:48,630 with human interaction than others yeah 1141 00:56:53,660 --> 00:56:50,910 but you know cats don't hunt with you 1142 00:56:57,260 --> 00:56:53,670 dogs do you know cats don't really watch 1143 00:56:58,910 --> 00:56:57,270 the front door dogs do you know cats may 1144 00:57:01,400 --> 00:56:58,920 sleep at the pillow but that's only 1145 00:57:03,470 --> 00:57:01,410 because they allow you there yeah where 1146 00:57:05,359 --> 00:57:03,480 is the dog sort of sort of hangs out and 1147 00:57:07,849 --> 00:57:05,369 looks around I don't know I just feel 1148 00:57:09,859 --> 00:57:07,859 that there's more of a human dog 1149 00:57:11,450 --> 00:57:09,869 interaction than human cat there do 1150 00:57:13,940 --> 00:57:11,460 obviously there's a human cat 1151 00:57:16,339 --> 00:57:13,950 interaction as well but it's a different 1152 00:57:19,309 --> 00:57:16,349 type well you've had both at the same 1153 00:57:21,980 --> 00:57:19,319 time more often than myself so I will I 1154 00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:21,990 will defer to your I know there was the 1155 00:57:26,059 --> 00:57:24,240 bird too which is another whole thing 1156 00:57:28,010 --> 00:57:26,069 well birds are amazing the way they can 1157 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:28,020 pick out colors and they're so smart and 1158 00:57:34,809 --> 00:57:31,530 rows and so forth but yes listeners 1159 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:34,819 listeners yes please send us your 1160 00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:37,650 experiences and maybe if you'd like to 1161 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:40,290 be on at the end of the show recounting 1162 00:57:47,839 --> 00:57:44,010 your experience yourself well that can 1163 00:57:51,839 --> 00:57:47,849 be arranged and so I just like to take 1164 00:57:55,890 --> 00:57:51,849 this moment to thank mr. bill 1165 00:58:00,120 --> 00:57:55,900 our wonderful sound engineer and just a 1166 00:58:02,789 --> 00:58:00,130 nod to Nate Duffy who recorded our intro 1167 00:58:06,150 --> 00:58:02,799 which we still use and very much 1168 00:58:10,469 --> 00:58:06,160 appreciate so thanks to both of those 1169 00:58:13,140 --> 00:58:10,479 guys and I guess is this a rep it's a 1170 00:58:17,479 --> 00:58:13,150 wrap I think so shall we say goodbye